25 replies to this topic

[Dirty Starfish]

I think something should be done to limit the size of weapons a light can carry. For example, say that any mech below 40 tons cannot carry a weapon over five tons without a significant movement penalty, that any mech below 60 cannot carry a 12 ton weapon (just throwing these numbers out) and that heavies and assaults can take whatever. This would hopefully cripple the PPC spider and raven builds I've been seeing around and would bring more realism to the game.

[Bilbo]

Better hit registration would cripple said mechs and needs to be addressed anyway.

[Taemien]

Serial Peacemaker, on 07 August 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I think something should be done to limit the size of weapons a light can carry. For example, say that any mech below 40 tons cannot carry a weapon over five tons without a significant movement penalty, that any mech below 60 cannot carry a 12 ton weapon (just throwing these numbers out) and that heavies and assaults can take whatever. This would hopefully cripple the PPC spider and raven builds I've been seeing around and would bring more realism to the game.

Its BattleTech, if it fits, it works.



Yes, that is a Gauss Rifle on a 35 ton mech.

[Joseph Mallan]

Serial Peacemaker, on 07 August 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I think something should be done to limit the size of weapons a light can carry. For example, say that any mech below 40 tons cannot carry a weapon over five tons without a significant movement penalty, that any mech below 60 cannot carry a 12 ton weapon (just throwing these numbers out) and that heavies and assaults can take whatever. This would hopefully cripple the PPC spider and raven builds I've been seeing around and would bring more realism to the game.

3050 Panther Equipped with an ERPPC


3025 Panther, Main Weapon Lord's Light PPC.

[FupDup]

Serial Peacemaker, on 07 August 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I think something should be done to limit the size of weapons a light can carry. For example, say that any mech below 40 tons cannot carry a weapon over five tons without a significant movement penalty, that any mech below 60 cannot carry a 12 ton weapon (just throwing these numbers out) and that heavies and assaults can take whatever. This would hopefully cripple the PPC spider and raven builds I've been seeing around and would bring more realism to the game.

Your "throw out" numbers end up crippling several stock builds, such as the Panther, Hollander, Centurion, and Hunchback.

Edited by FupDup, 07 August 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

3050 Panther Equipped with an ERPPC


3025 Panther, Main Weapon Lord's Light PPC.

Draconis Combine trash!!!

But yes, this is a bad idea. Any mech that can fit a weapon should be able to use the weapon. Now, that doesn't mean that building a mech like a 3 PPC Jenner is smart. Quite frankly, dual PPC ECM Ravens/Cicadas are just dumb. That isn't to say that they shouldn't be allowed. It just means that the freedom that PGI has given us to adjust mechs for different play styles has gotten out of control. There is a reason why the Panther has 1 PPC and, ahem, backup weapons for short ranges. Spoiler: It isn't so that people can use the PPC in melee ranges!

[El Bandito]

I would prefer it to be a quirk per mech chassis.

For example, Puma and Panther would be able to mount PPCs and Hollander can mount Gauss--but not for any other light mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 August 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Trauglodyte, on 07 August 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Draconis Combine trash!!!

That would be this, not the Panther!

[Angel of Annihilation]

I think the point has been made about just how many light mechs stock carry these types of weapons. Heck a few clan light carry up to 2 ER PPCs if I am not mistake and they will be in game probably in 6 months.

Also, I am not sure how effective most of these light mechs are. 7 Tons for PPC is alot. Lets take a Jenner K for example. I can mount 6 MLs, 14 DHS and an engine that allows me to run over 140 kph and run it fairly cool. The 6 MLs allow me to output 30 damage every 3 seconds in an Alpha and I can alpha quite often without overheat.

Or

I can run a single ER PPC that has a 4 second recharge and does 10 whole damage.

Now yes, I can snipe a bit with the ER PPC build but its not like I can't easily close to 250m really quickly when I am running 140 kph so which build do you think is more effective.

Lets look at a Spider 5D. I usually run 2 MPL and 1 small laser on my. That is 4.5 tons. To run a PPC/ER PPC, I would have to come up with another 2.5 tons from somewhere so where do I pull it. Armor probably so that means I would end up losing 80 armor to mount a PPC on this mech. 80 armor is like cutting my armor by 30-40% which in turn will massively effect my ability to survive.

Anyway, I think it is pretty obvious that mounting a PPC on a light usually doesn't result in the most efficient or effective of builds in most cases.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 07 August 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I think the point has been made about just how many light mechs stock carry these types of weapons. Heck a few clan light carry up to 2 ER PPCs if I am not mistake and they will be in game probably in 6 months. Also, I am not sure how effective most of these light mechs are. 7 Tons for PPC is alot. Lets take a Jenner K for example. I can mount 6 MLs, 14 DHS and an engine that allows me to run over 140 kph and run it fairly cool. The 6 MLs allow me to output 30 damage every 3 seconds in an Alpha and I can alpha quite often without overheat. Or I can run a single ER PPC that has a 4 second recharge and does 10 whole damage. Now yes, I can snipe a bit with the ER PPC build but its not like I can't easily close to 250m really quickly when I am running 140 kph so which build do you think is more effective. Lets look at a Spider 5D. I usually run 2 MPL and 1 small laser on my. That is 4.5 tons. To run a PPC/ER PPC, I would have to come up with another 2.5 tons from somewhere so where do I pull it. Armor probably so that means I would end up losing 80 armor to mount a PPC on this mech. 80 armor is like cutting my armor by 30-40% which in turn will massively effect my ability to survive. Anyway, I think it is pretty obvious that mounting a PPC on a light usually doesn't result in the most efficient or effective of builds in most cases.

In some cases it is pretty effective. I remember seeing single ERPPC Spiders doing rather well. I would attribute that to broken hitboxes and jumpjets.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 August 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

El Bandito, on 07 August 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

In some cases it is pretty effective. I remember seeing single ERPPC Spiders doing rather well. I would attribute that to broken hitboxes and jumpjets.

I run a PPC on all of my Cicadas. But, only one because it is better damage and weight efficient to supplement the PPC with smaller weapons for shorter ranges. Especially when hit registration is so damned back with the PPC at close range. With FF, ES, and a 300XL (gives me a 137kph speed), I have 15 tons to utilize. I could go with 2 PPCs or I could go with 1 PPC, 4 Md Lasers, and 4 DHSs to allow for usage of all 5 weapons at the appropriate time while doing more damage.

[Shadey99]

El Bandito, on 07 August 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

I would prefer it to be a quirk per mech chassis.

For example, Puma and Panther would be able to mount PPCs and Hollander can mount Gauss--but not for any other light mechs.

A cicada 3C comes stock with a PPC and even the Blackjack BJ3 comes stock with paired PPCs. Neither is exactly a 'light' mech, but both are on the lower weight end of the mediums (5 and 10 tons above with 35 ton Spiders, Hollanders, and Panthers).

Trauglodyte, on 07 August 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Draconis Combine trash!!!

But yes, this is a bad idea. Any mech that can fit a weapon should be able to use the weapon. Now, that doesn't mean that building a mech like a 3 PPC Jenner is smart. Quite frankly, dual PPC ECM Ravens/Cicadas are just dumb. That isn't to say that they shouldn't be allowed. It just means that the freedom that PGI has given us to adjust mechs for different play styles has gotten out of control. There is a reason why the Panther has 1 PPC and, ahem, backup weapons for short ranges. Spoiler: It isn't so that people can use the PPC in melee ranges!

My ninja sniper Cicada 3M build used to run a pair of SL or a single ML as backup, but heat increases have meant striping out the backups for a heatsink. The reason btw to run a dual PPC ECM Cicada (or raven I'd assume) is to stay out of detection range, which is a bad range for these to fight assaults at, and instead deliver pin point smacks from places the enemy don't expect. Then move to a new location and repeat. They are ranged harassers, ER LLs and other alternatives just lack the reach and punch and AC2s and AC5s weigh to much and require ammo. This job is much harder with 12v12 on some of the incredibly small maps MWO has. Besides an Atlas DDC can do the same thing they can, just slower.

Edited by Shadey99, 07 August 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[Shadey99]

Viktor Drake, on 07 August 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Lets look at a Spider 5D. I usually run 2 MPL and 1 small laser on my. That is 4.5 tons. To run a PPC/ER PPC, I would have to come up with another 2.5 tons from somewhere so where do I pull it. Armor probably so that means I would end up losing 80 armor to mount a PPC on this mech. 80 armor is like cutting my armor by 30-40% which in turn will massively effect my ability to survive.

A single weapon Spider is going to be more like this: ER PPC SDR-5D

Personally I run a LL+2 ML build for my Spider and sniper with my Cicada 3M, but I can see the appeal.

[Lightfoot]

Puma, Puma, Puma!!

Puma prime stock loadout, Clan Light mech, that carries 2x Clan ERPPCs. Pretty good at it too. It's a real killer for a Light.

Edited by Lightfoot, 07 August 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Viktor Drake, on 07 August 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I think the point has been made about just how many light mechs stock carry these types of weapons. Heck a few clan light carry up to 2 ER PPCs if I am not mistake and they will be in game probably in 6 months.

Also, I am not sure how effective most of these light mechs are. 7 Tons for PPC is alot. Lets take a Jenner K for example. I can mount 6 MLs, 14 DHS and an engine that allows me to run over 140 kph and run it fairly cool. The 6 MLs allow me to output 30 damage every 3 seconds in an Alpha and I can alpha quite often without overheat.

Or

I can run a single ER PPC that has a 4 second recharge and does 10 whole damage.

Now yes, I can snipe a bit with the ER PPC build but its not like I can't easily close to 250m really quickly when I am running 140 kph so which build do you think is more effective.

Lets look at a Spider 5D. I usually run 2 MPL and 1 small laser on my. That is 4.5 tons. To run a PPC/ER PPC, I would have to come up with another 2.5 tons from somewhere so where do I pull it. Armor probably so that means I would end up losing 80 armor to mount a PPC on this mech. 80 armor is like cutting my armor by 30-40% which in turn will massively effect my ability to survive.

Anyway, I think it is pretty obvious that mounting a PPC on a light usually doesn't result in the most efficient or effective of builds in most cases.

All true, but that Panther with it's PPC was meant to help keep other Light Mechs under cover while his allies were advancing to kick their ash up close. In a team game, teamwork will win over lone wolf tactics.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 August 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 07 August 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

In some cases it is pretty effective. I remember seeing single ERPPC Spiders doing rather well. I would attribute that to broken hitboxes and jumpjets.

Oh I am not saying they can't do ok with the build because I saw a Jenner last night absolutely wreck havoc with a single PPC build. However that is the exception, not the rule because he was obviously a really skilled pilot and I think with his skills, he could have been even more effective with a more traditional build.

Most of the time what I see when I see a light sporting a PPC is them missing 75% of their shots because it is hard to hit a moving target when your also moving 140 kph. Additionally, if an enemy light, with a traditional ML build, gets in close to them, they are totally at a disadvantge and usually end up dead.

It is a matter of perference to be honest, but in no way, form or fashion, do I think a light mounting a PPC is any more of a threat than a light with a traditional build which makes them mounting a PPC or whatever, a non-issue.

[Xeno Phalcon]

The UM-R60L had a AC20, of course it was also a 30 tonner doing 32kph.

Really does redefine the term "a slow death". XD

[Joseph Mallan]

Once again it is about balance. A Light Mech does not need as much speed if it has a bigger ranged punch. A spider with a PPC is a good sniper. Its got punch and speed, but cannot take a lot of hits (I did say hits not HSR fails). Also a PPC Light isn't about DPS its about Burst damage. Both have a place in combat.

[Deathlike]

Deal with it. Despite the hitreg issue... if you're actually having trouble shooting down lights, then you truly need more practice or more cleverness to avoid the shots they make. They are not invincible by any means.

[OneEyed Jack]

Deathlike, on 07 August 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Deal with it. Despite the hitreg issue... if you're actually having trouble shooting down lights, then you truly need more practice or more cleverness to avoid the shots they make. They are not invincible by any means.

If the server is saying hits aren't hit, we need more practice at.... what? Sweet-talking the server? Sacrificing small animals to the gods of random chance? Failed hit-reg isn't something you can out-play. Sure, they can be killed, but it's going to take more shots on average, even for someone with good aim. More shots equals more time in which they are shooting you or in which to run away.